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  • meacupla - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    This is fantastic news.
    nvidia loses, and softbank loses.
  • Calin - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Softbank just won 1.25 billion dollars due to the deal not going through.
    How much will ARM be valued same time next year is still unknown, so they might lose quite a bit.
  • niva - Monday, February 14, 2022 - link

    Not just that, regardless of how you felt about the deal, the Chinese angle as to how this deal fell through should be alarming. This might turn out to be a net negative in the long run.
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, February 15, 2022 - link

    Well, it's not unprecedented, is it?

    What's IMO more alarming about the Chinese aspect is how ARM's Chinese subsidiary went rogue.
  • aebiv - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Yes, and Intel and AMD celebrate.
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Not if they already jumped ship.
  • ballsystemlord - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Considering AMD has ARM cores inside of their CPUs for their PSPs, yes, they certainly are celebrating -- and with good reason.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    I'm sure AMD could swap in something else for those. Since the codebase of the software running on those cores is closed-source, it would be relatively transparent to their customers.
  • Oxford Guy - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    The agencies certainly provide the code and the bulk of the design.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    Bored again? It's hard to imagine you have nothing better to do than spreading conspiracy theories on here.
  • vlad42 - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    He's probably taking a break from digging in his back yard trying to prove the deep state exists and is run by lizard men residing in hollow earth. lol
  • Oxford Guy - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    Get back to me when you have something to say. I have tried to explain to you that trolling with ad hominem is not useful input.
  • vlad42 - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    Why am I not surprised, the person trolling by spreading bullshit conspiracy theories doesn't like being called out. Not only that, you have the audacity to accuse the people calling you out as the ones trolling.

    As long as you continue to spread these conspiracy theories you will be called out as the conspiracy theorist nutjob you act as.

    Get back to us when you are not spreading FUD, lies, and nonsense and have something to say based on actual facts.
  • Qasar - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    ad homenem:
    adjective
    attacking an opponent's character or motives rather than answering the argument or claim.

    appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason

    "
    Get back to us when you are not spreading FUD, lies, and nonsense and have something to say based on actual facts. " um this is all he does, and has, vlad. go look at 98% of his previous posts.
    HE gets called out for crap, and them claims some BS and calls it an ad hominem, which what HIS own posts are.
  • mode_13h - Saturday, February 12, 2022 - link

    > attacking an opponent's character or motives

    Sometimes, that's just a matter of seeing the forest instead of the trees.

    A troll loves to get people bogged down in having to pick apart one faithless or controversial point after another, but this gets tiring and eventually a bigger picture emerges that can't be ignored.

    So, you can keep making the kinds of posts we always complain about, but don't expect a different outcome. Or, maybe reconsider. It's up to you.
  • mode_13h - Saturday, February 12, 2022 - link

    > So, you can keep making the kinds of posts we always complain about

    Sorry, this part was aimed at "Oxford".
  • Oxford Guy - Saturday, February 12, 2022 - link

    Concern trolling isn’t defensible, like your use of ad hom instead of useful rebuttal information.

    No one is actually making you pollute the forum with troll posts, mode. That’s on you.
  • Qasar - Sunday, February 13, 2022 - link

    " No one is actually making you pollute the forum with troll posts, mode. That’s on you. "
    and no one is making you do the same thing with your BS conspiracy crap, console scam BS, and all the other crap you post that is just your option, whats your point, hypocrite ?
  • mode_13h - Sunday, February 13, 2022 - link

    > No one is actually making you pollute the forum with troll posts, mode. That’s on you.

    Nah bro. That's on you. You're the one making posts with a clear agenda and designed to inflame. Often jacking the thread way off-topic, in the process.

    Nice try accusing me of your own sins, though.

    Again, your trash posts aren't welcome by us. That you keep making them just proves you're here to troll rather than contribute in any meaningful way.
  • Oxford Guy - Monday, February 28, 2022 - link

    The truth is sometimes inflammatory. Not everything can be a carefully manufactured pieces of nonsense covered in corporate sugar. You're wasting everyone's time, both of you.
  • Qasar - Friday, March 4, 2022 - link

    like you waste peoples time with your BS scam theories that you cant prove with links or anything, because it is only in your mind? you call people out on things, but yet do the same thing, hypocrite ?
  • Wereweeb - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    "Big Corporations don't like when other Big Corporations monopolize a market!" thank you Einstein for your incredible contribution.
  • Oxford Guy - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    I’m more impressed by the level of grade school naïveté that passes for security analysis.

    The security agencies spend all their time hand-making cards for poor children, apparently. They wouldn’t know a jot about initiatives like Pluton.
  • danjw - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Not really, it might slow down the ARM architecture displacing x64 but not that much. In fact I think it is more likely to speed it up. Now that no one needs to worry about Nvidia holding back ARM stuff for themselves.
  • flgt - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Great news!
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Too bad for ARM. This whole episode has done lasting damage to it. Not as much as if the deal would've gone through, but it definitely tapped the brakes on ARM's seemingly-inevitable trajectory to dominate the entire computing landscape.

    It's probably also bad news for Imagination, since Nvidia was already moving to put its GPU IP on the market (they even signed a deal with MediaTek) and now we know that ARM's Mali isn't going away.
  • flgt - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Agree, and it spooked some heavy hitters into pouring resources into RISC-V who were previously happy to work with a neutral ARM. Another instance of smaller, innovative companies being mortally wounded by mega-corporations who are using M&A's to kill off competition.
  • Wereweeb - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Good. I'd rather have RISC-V gain as much of their marketshare as possible.
  • blargh4 - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    The risc-v ecosystem seems pretty far from being a serious threat to ARM at present.

    a royalty-free open isa is pretty small piece of the puzzle, obviously you need the cores, but then you also need all the supporting IP and infrastructure, and ARM's got everything you need and it's mature and solid and familiar to people who work on this stuff.
  • Wereweeb - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Don't worry, they're working on that :)

    The very first step is get people working with your architecture at all. Then you start building the IP to compete in more and more markets.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Interested in how you see ARM as being damaged, and what you see as the causes - would you be okay to elaborate further?
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    I just mean it spooked people thinking/planning/starting to build ARM CPUs. Like Intel or AMD, for all we know. I mean, AMD has an actual track record of building ARM CPUs, with their Opteron A1100 (an 8-core A57 CPU that was socket-compatible with their x86 Opterons) and the K12 Jim Keller was rumored to have designed.

    Also, while I'm sure Chinese didn't love ARM under Japanese ownership, I think they were even more concerned about American ownership. That's probably one the reasons they worked to kill the deal. The prospect of it going through probably pushed them more towards RISC-V, MIPS, and proprietary ISAs.
  • Lakados - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    China doesn’t care, they already took control of ARM China, which is now its own independent company and has access and licensing rights to all the V8 and older core designs. They are working on their own chip designs independent of ARM SoftBank moving forward.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    Oh, but they *do* care, because they need to sell their stuff *outside* of China. If ARM China doesn't have the legit IP rights in the eyes of foreign regulators, then ARM can file cease-and-desist orders to halt sales of those items.
  • wrkingclass_hero - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Boo, I wanted to see the juggernaut that is Nvidia-arm.
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Armvidia
  • TristanSDX - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    rather nvidarm, but do not matter now, sadly
  • sharath.naik - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Why? Nvidia has a history of going out of their way to impede innovation and competition, just look at their history with Linux.
  • Oxford Guy - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    All big corporations try to maximize their profits. That’s not about being altruistic.

    There is nothing special about Nvidia.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    Nvidia does seem to have a certain ruthlessness about the way it competes that you don't always see.
  • Oxford Guy - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    Oh really?
  • mode_13h - Saturday, February 12, 2022 - link

    Yeah, it's like most companies are trying to wrestle or box, while Nvidia is fighting MMA-style.
  • Oxford Guy - Saturday, February 12, 2022 - link

    Fascinating. The indictment is that a corporation is acting too effectively like a corporation.
  • mode_13h - Sunday, February 13, 2022 - link

    Well, perhaps it's noteworthy because behavior too far outside the norm (and not in the interests of consumers) is likely to invite more laws and regulations.
  • mode_13h - Sunday, February 13, 2022 - link

    And I think that's what tends to push most corporations to exercise a bit more restraint.

    Another factor is that corporations have their public image and reputation to consider. For instance, there are some people (and companies) that won't do business with Nvidia. Apple is one high-profile example.
  • Oxford Guy - Monday, February 28, 2022 - link

    Not particularly interesting doublethink.
  • Qasar - Friday, March 4, 2022 - link

    you would know, you are the pro at it.
  • ballsystemlord - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Soon part 2 will begin. <spoiler>Nvidia buys up all the ARM stock.</spoiler>
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Once ARM IPOs, they could probably buy enough shares to get a seat on the board, but that's a far cry from actually owning ARM.
  • Silver5urfer - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    People say this is the worst but they are wrong due to how bad M&As happened just a few days back - Microsoft buys out entire Zenimax. Then moves to Acti-Blizz with whopping 78Bn USD deal. Sony did Bungie not that it's a great studio but the acq are too many. And Disney bought out entire Fox for 70bn+, ATT bought out full WB CNN networks for 70bn+, Comcast bought out NBC Universal. Apple got a nice cheap insider sponsored deal for 5G from Intel for just 1.5Bn. Avago took over Broadcom, Dell and EMC, the list goes on and on and if you look at P&G how they own literally everything on the market shelf and Pepsi Co.. And also do not forget Tencent. They own almost a small pie in very big industries from games on PC / Console (Epic Games they own more than 40% so all of Unreal Engine) and on mobile virtually all trash MTX garbage game publishers. And in Hollywood studios and what not. Along with the conglomerates corporations, you know what I mean. This is not an isolated case.

    Now moving to this, Nvidia simply wanted to become like AMD and Intel and also blast Apple hard. This deal was cancelled because of Apple and Microsoft along with Google. Qcomm lobbies a lot as well. Apple is my bet which have higher say, they lead the market with their yearly garbage refreshes and push phones every year with sealed in battery and soldered products how can they take Nvidia ? esp after how their relationship was.

    Consumers are already at a loss with ARM garbage use and throw technology, like show me any phone in proper working condition with full speed after 2-3 years ? while x86 PC we have Core 2 Quad still playing games with SSE patches on the exe. And Pentium 4 running Windows 11. Last time I read even ARM says how their own licensees are their competition. No wonder they wanted to take this to an IPO esp when SoftBank blew billions on that Wework. I think these Japanese corporations get purposefully sabotaged look at Toshiba more than 100 years old corporation blew cash on Westinghouse, Sony lost a lot of money, SoftBank I bet it's the investor greed.

    IPO is a big investor greed based garbage. Now ARM going IPO means it will be in that market turmoil where stock is literally used to manipurate for lining the pockets of the elite and making changes dictating things around only on the basis of greed. Intel was the victim once the elite started to see Apple and mobile garbage being top . Intel was left to rot with poor management on the CMOS Lithography and uArch. Also axed the entire fantastic tech of Optane, everything for greed. Just like Detroit where much of the jobs and industry was rot due to export of everything to China and overseas.

    A shame, multiple companies allowed this to happen. Softbank on it's poor management of assets, lobbying against this, Nvidia's policies of more proprietary nature rubbish crap.
  • shelbystripes - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    That was a lot of words just to be wrong.

    I mean, with drivel like this: “ Consumers are already at a loss with ARM garbage use and throw technology, like show me any phone in proper working condition with full speed after 2-3 years ?”

    My iPhone. It’s an ARM based phone. ARM gets royalties for the ARM design inside it. Do you even know what you’re talking about?
  • webdoctors - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Are you sure about that? I thought Apple and QCOM have perpetual arch licenses they made a one time fee for, so their ARM based designs don't need to pay annual royalty to ARM.
  • Doug_S - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    I don't think anyone knows for sure what the terms of the architecture license are, since terms are not public. It could be a one time flat fee, but I'm skeptical since that one time fee would have to be huge for it to be worth it for ARM.

    It is more likely a yearly payment ($25 million was rumored at one time) which may or may not include some sort of unit based royalty. Which obviously would be at a much lower rate than the unit royalty for using ARM designed cores.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    A benefit of ARM being public is that we should get a little more visibility into their revenue breakdown.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    I'm quite certain it's not a one-off fee. That would either result in a forking of the architecture over time, or ARM effectively doing dev work on new cores for the licensees for free.
  • Lakados - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Apple pays a small fee per ARM chip but it’s pennies.
  • ballsystemlord - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    First of all, we need to take into account how Apple locks down the HW. Sure you can find used ones that work well enough, but if even the button needs replacing you'll be paying Apple through the roof for the "official" part.

    As for the "slow" aspect, that's due to the ARM cores focusing on having a small die footprint and web pages having too much JavaScript. It makes more sense to have us buy new devices than to have your IT department cleanup their JavaScript and rewrite your website to be less reliant on Javascript.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    > have your IT department cleanup their JavaScript

    I think the real problem with Javascript performance is all the adware on the web.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    You can reliably assume that our Silver5urfer friend (under their various aliases) knows what they're talking about roughly 50% of the time and fills in the gaps with purest nonsense.
  • shabby - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Wipe the phone and it's just like new.
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    > show me any phone in proper working condition with full speed after 2-3 years ?

    You can replace the battery and they'll be fine. The main issue is they stop getting software updates.
  • Silver5urfer - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Nope. Battery replacement is not trivial. You cannot DIY it easily. For iPhone it's easy because of the machines that Apple uses. For Android you have to go to BestBuy or some bs services and get it done. Plus after a while like 2-3 years later it will be even hard.

    Software updates ruined Android with BS restrictions on Wifiscanning limits, Safetynet locks, API blacklisting, background task limitations, QS toggles became worst on AOSP, more and more restrictions on Bootloader ABL locks, more Camera API bugs, poor optimization even official, worst of all and that ruins everything - Scoped Storage which killed filesystem pretty much from Android 10. And that new AAB bundling which even kills Sideloading to a pain.

    I'd rather have my LG bootloader unlocked phone running Android 8 it's not like I cannot use anything, I use 7.1.2 with latest Google Maps and it even helps me navigating long distances, so that BS fallacy of latest Software is not realistic and only helps that Apple is best out there since long term policy also forgetting how it makes the old phones crawl and slower And how people getting best security (even more stupid because insane hacks are out there latest one was Pegasus and Google Play itself harbors malware)
  • Wereweeb - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    It depends a lot on the phone. Some controllable heating device, a crafts knife, some guitar picks and a good guide and you're good to go with many of them. In reality the biggest problem is sourcing good parts, which is why I stick with phones that sell really well - more parts to choose from with more reviews as to whether they perform like original ones.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    > Battery replacement is not trivial.

    I paid a small shop like $60 to replace the battery in my 2018 LG phone, about a year ago. The replacement battery is still going strong.
  • Silver5urfer - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Yeah and I have to by that gospel. Like I should go out and get my phone also repaired for $60 with some unnamed non OEM battery and assume everything goes strong. Mate you have to understand how Repair market works and how Apple services vs Android junk works.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    Well, given that the factory original LG battery got swollen and split open the case, I'll take my chances with an aftermarket battery.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Oh hey, it sounds like - by your own evidence - not all of these devices are disposable. Makes ya think (or not, in your case).
  • kgardas - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    No, they will not be, since flashes ages too and loses info in them. Seen on 5 years old BB passport silver and others too.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    And the software updates have the square-root of nothing to do with ARM's side of things and everything to do with OS designers, phone hardware vendors, and companies like Qualcomm who are supposed to develop drivers for their proprietary components.

    All of that stems back to the rapid pace of progress and the established norms of the smartphone marketplace. They're different devices from desktops - but our silver friend here has apparently never heard of Fairphone and would prefer it if every device had a socketed CPU and RAM, no matter how absurdly large that made them.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    > our silver friend here ... would prefer it if every device had a socketed CPU and RAM,
    > no matter how absurdly large that made them.

    LOL, thanks for the image. Socketed phones would be half the size of bricks!
  • Silver5urfer - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Do you understand English ? The point was about how node_13 was saying only issue is Software update and the point I mentioned was how garbage Android has been and how it's not having any issues running old software, like Google Apps all of them work. And how security doesn't even work. And battery being a bigger issue than a PC because of lack of parts and sealed design.

    Looks like you have some issues mate, like constantly mentioning about me which is completely irrelevant, not just this single instance but like every comment here you constantly mention it as if I'm living rent free in your head, and pulled some socketed thing into the point and assuming how I demanded a socketed phone. On that note, you know project that Google started ? ARA it had CPU blocks also modular entire thing got axed. Everything is possible if there is a way.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    > ARM going IPO means ... making changes dictating things around only on the basis of greed.

    Right, because Softbank is a charity.

    I mean, I get the point that investors and therefore board members are too short-sighted, but there are plenty of private equity firms that don't exactly do a lot of good for the companies they buy.

    > Also axed the entire fantastic tech of Optane

    LOL. Optane was a fantastic promise, but the tech never managed to deliver. Why do you think Micron never brought any 3D XPoint products to market?
  • Silver5urfer - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Useless trash counterpoint. What is with the Charity mention ? IPO is only driven by investor power. You can wrap all kind of nonsense into that and say ton of things. A private entity operates differently than a public one.

    Optane is the best memory technology to exist. It destroys SLC technology to ash. They never materialized because how Intel didn't get them to mass produce properly and that needs more money and R&D which is not liked by Investors. It's now only an Enterprise technology. And consumers get trash QLC, PLC, and you laugh at Optane ?
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    > Optane is the best memory technology to exist.

    First, it underdelivered on its original promises and was way late. Second, its density is awful, which is the main reason it's so much more expensive than NAND flash. They haven't been able to scale it up to many layers. Third, it seems to burn more power than NAND flash.

    So, it's only competitive when you need extreme low latency, at almost any price.

    > and you laugh at Optane ?

    No, I cry for Optane. I wish I could get an Optane SSD for my boot/OS drive, not that I really need it.

    What I LOL'd at is your hyperbole. If Optane were more commercially viable, I think they'd have kept it going. You're just so biased in the way you see some things. Like as if the other side of the coin doesn't even exist.
  • amschroeder55 - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Hot take, but I think this is the worst possible outcome here. ARM isn't making enough money off of licensing to survive (there is a reason softbank wanted to sell), and an IPO is not going to generate anywhere near enough real internal resources to be able to compete with Apple, Intel or AMD in the long run. If ARMs stock holdings were actually close to class leading you wouldn't have seen Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Mediatek all spend huge development resources to diverge from their base offerings. I also don't have much faith that ARMs base designs are going to hold out much longer in server space, with other companies crushing it with either substantially modified variants or rise of newer architectures.

    I honestly believe getting sold to nVidia was the only way you could maintain some semblance of open access while also giving the resources needed to take the fight to other teams.

    Clearly most people disagree there, but that's why it is a hot take.
  • amschroeder55 - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    What I mean by IPO not generating resources is that stock price increase after set IPO doesn't make the company profit, and you can be darn sure Softbank will profit every cent it can from this leaving ARM in a shitty catch-22 with even less leverage than before.
  • alfalfacat - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    ARM makes more than enough money to survive, the reason Softbank wants to sell is because _they_ lost a ton of money on their WeWork and Uber investments and desperately need a cash infusion to shore up their balance sheet. Your hot take is just plain wrong.
  • nunya112 - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    thats only the start of their hemorrhaging of cash, pretty much most of SoftBank's investments are doing poorly.
  • meacupla - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    softbank buys and sells often. IDK why you would think ARM, which owns 100% marketshare for smartphones, would simply run out of money.

    Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Mediatek, etc. use customized SoC designs to meet their specific design goals. It's not because ARM doesn't offer a good base design.
    ARM server, and PC market share was never good to begin with. And what exactly is the problem with a specialized ARM SoC design for servers taking over the base design? If it sells well, then ARM will benefit from licensing and royalties of those ARM server sales.
  • Doug_S - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    Apple is not using "customized SoC designs" like the rest, they are designing their own cores and not using ARM cores. Qualcomm will be doing the same once the Nuvia core is ready. They are doing that specifically because ARM's base designs aren't good enough, or at least not as good as they could be.
  • Wereweeb - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    ARM still get paid for them using ARM's architecture, so your point isn't as brilliant as you think it is. Apple and Qualcomm using ARM cores will still help ARM sell their own cores to others.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    It amazes me how many of the people who choose to opine about the ARM ecosystem don't actually know how it works.
  • Lakados - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Arm gets paid Pennie’s for those custom cores. ARM hasn’t turned a profit since 2017, when it goes public they are going to need to significantly increase their licensing fees. Which will drive some of the cheaper customers to ARM China instead which will make things worse for them.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    > Which will drive some of the cheaper customers to ARM China

    Not if those customers want to sell their products in markets that respect IP rights. ARM could easily get a court ruling to halt their sales, in those countries.
  • Lakados - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    They already are selling them and ARM holdings can’t do much, the Chinese bought up 51% and took it independent. They are already shipping their XPU series chips and have basically taken the Chinese arm market with it which was their second biggest customer.
  • mode_13h - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    > They are already shipping their XPU series chips and
    > have basically taken the Chinese arm market with it

    Right. Now, watch them try to sell it in other developed countries: US, Canada, EU, Japan, South Korea, Australia, etc. Not gonna happen.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    > Apple is ... designing their own cores and not using ARM cores.
    > Qualcomm will be doing the same once the Nuvia core is ready.

    That's only 2 examples. Still, fewer than before. For instance, Samsung and Nvidia have killed off their custom ARM cores.
  • iphonebestgamephone - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Grace next is gonna be off the shelf?
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Grace uses stock ARM cores.

    I was referring to the Denver and Carmel cores Nvidia had designed for their tablet and self-driving SoCs. Their latest (Orin) uses stock ARM cores, though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver
  • Lakados - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    NVidia is selling their custom cores as fast as they can build them. They designed their custom cores for the Gracemont platform, it also powers much of their new AI network switching tech. NVidia has doubled down on the custom cores, not cancelled them.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    > NVidia is selling their custom cores as fast as they can build them.

    According to what/whom and why aren't they in Orin?

    > they designed their custom cores for the Gracemont platform

    "Gracemont" is the name of Intel's E-cores introduced in Alder Lake. Grace is the name of a Nvidia server CPU that's said to feature ARM Neoverse cores.

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/16610/nvidia-unveil...

    > NVidia has doubled down on the custom cores, not cancelled them.

    Source? And I'm not talking about the little microcontroller-like RISC-V cores they have in their GPUs. We're talking like full-blown ARMv8-A cores that you could run Linux on.
  • Lakados - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    NVidia developed the A78AE cores used in it in conjunction with ARM, now that they’ve split I’m sure they are going to have to work out ownership for that.

    Grace is based on Nanoverse but again heavily modified, not the stock cores.

    NVidia’s custom arm cores are powering all their edge networking switches currently as well as all the AI for the drive assist. They also renewed their design license for their ability to make their own cores for another 20 years. Source 2 paragraphs up in this article were commenting on.
  • mode_13h - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    > NVidia developed the A78AE cores used in it in conjunction with ARM

    Okay, so that's Nvidia collaborating with ARM to customize A78 cores for it, like how Qualcomm worked with ARM to build the X1. However, we still saw X1 cores show up in other SoCs, so my guess is that Nvidia didn't do most of the work and doesn't own that IP.

    > now that they’ve split

    No, they didn't split because they were never joined. Until the merger is approved and finalized, they're legally obligated to continue operating as separate entities.

    > Grace is based on Nanoverse but again heavily modified, not the stock cores.

    According to where? You realize that misspelling Neoverse doesn't exactly help your credibility.

    Anyway, ARM offers an array of configuration options, when you buy IP from them. And, as mentioned above, they offer further customization for interested customers with deep enough pockets.

    > NVidia’s custom arm cores are powering all their edge networking switches currently

    Oh, I just figured out that you're talking about Mellanox! In what way are they "custom"?

    > as well as all the AI for the drive assist.

    Yeah, that's what we were talking about, above.

    > They also renewed their design license

    "According to NVIDIA, the company will be retaining its 20 year Arm license"

    Retaining is very different than renewing. It could be nothing more than hedging their bets and doesn't necessarily commit them to designing more custom cores.
  • ballsystemlord - Tuesday, February 8, 2022 - link

    "ARM isn't making enough money off of licensing to survive..."
    How can you tell?

    Zen has ARM cores in it for their PSP. There's Apple's M* series of processors. There's cellphones.
    And that's just off the top of my head! Did you know that ARM has micro-controllers also? This goes beyond Arduino, there's washers, smart thermostats, Amazon Echo, the list goes on and on and on.

    How could you possibly conclude that they don't make enough money from licensing?

    Incidentally, I know someone who wanted an ARM license, do you know how long the licensing process takes? 2 Years minimum! Yes! 2 years! If ARM needed more licencees to turn a profit, they'd be optimizing their licencing process, not selling to Nvidia or IPO-ing the company.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    AFAICT the "ARM isn't making enough money" thing is a meme being spread around comment sections by a specific sort of commenter who, shall we say, favours Nvidia for reasons that aren't made explicitly clear in their posts.

    Universally there seems to be an inability to understand the difference between Softbank not making as much money as they'd like from ARM, and ARM itself not making enough money. They're never clear on how ARM having more licensees and market share than ever is somehow worse for their finances.
  • Lakados - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Because ARM has posted losses every year since 2017, Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, NVidia they spend more on designing their custom cores than ARM makes in revenue. ARM isn’t able to compete in the market they’ve created of their own product.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    > ARM has posted losses every year since 2017

    Softbank being a private equity firm makes me skeptical of this. I don't know anything about Japanese corporate finance laws, but private equity firms in the US tend to be basically black boxes.
  • Lakados - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    Maybe we’ll see, I’m hoping ARM weathers this but Apples response of “we don’t use ARM, we use Apple Silicon” doesn’t inspire confidence. But I’m sure NVidia, Apple, Amazon, Samsung, and Qualcomm are going to be buying that stock.
  • SoftFox - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    I hear this a lot from commentators, but ARM has stated numerous times they don't intend to compete into 'bleeding edge' designs of any product category as it would affect there overall IP market.

    They have a balancing act to negotiate between different customers who want a number of characteristics, for example IPC, efficiency, power usage etc. They cover so many markets from Micro Controllers, smart cards to networking and servers If they tip the cart to much one one direction then they would lose customers in the other as generally these are mutually exclusive qualities

    If on the other hand a company comes along and requires a particular specialised design they are free to buy an architectural licence and build a core for their own needs.

    Saying that they are trying to improve the range of IP offerings with for example the new Semi-Custom Cortex-X line which is like a bridge to a full custom core however its doubtful they would go the full way and try and replicate an Apple M1.
  • mode_13h - Friday, February 11, 2022 - link

    > They have a balancing act to negotiate between different customers
    > who want a number of characteristics, for example IPC, efficiency, power usage etc.

    They already have 3 or 4 tiers of mobile Cortex-A series cores and now 3 tiers of server cores (Neoverse E, N, and V). You can't get much more specialized than that!

    > They cover so many markets from Micro Controllers

    They have at least 2 categories of dedicated microcontroller cores, as well. The Cortex M and R-series.

    > its doubtful they would go the full way and try and replicate an Apple M1.

    Yes, they're not a SoC company. Still, they need to stay as close as possible to the CPU and GPU cores from Apple & others, if they want to remain relevant. I agree that they'll probably never be as highly-tuned as Apple's, but they can't afford to fall too far behind.
  • Spunjji - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    Samsung, Qualcomm and Mediatek have all gone back to ARM base offerings...

    ARM's base designs don't really need to hold out in the server space - they get royalties from the custom designs there, and every custom design builds a greater ecosystem in which their own designs can potentially get a niche foothold. Win/win.

    And yes, you're arguably wrong about ARM being sold to Nvidia being a way to maintain open access. Nvidia have closed off everything they've ever acquired.
  • mode_13h - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    > I also don't have much faith that ARMs base designs
    > are going to hold out much longer in server space

    Huh? Okay, Ampere announced another in-house core, but just about everyone else is using ARM's IP.

    > I honestly believe getting sold to nVidia was the only way you could maintain
    > some semblance of open access while also giving the resources needed to
    > take the fight to other teams.

    This doesn't make sense. Nvidia is a profit-maximizing company. They're not going to operate ARM at a loss, just to be nice.
  • Uteman - Wednesday, February 9, 2022 - link

    So much irrelevant blather about the product when the subject matter is one company buying another. The fact that this attempt dies just means if NV is serious they will take another route. If Softbank lists ARM publicly then anyone can buy shares maybe they buy enough to get seats on the board and things can develop from there. Might cost NV more or less who knows, they may get their say at board level anyway.
  • mode_13h - Thursday, February 10, 2022 - link

    > maybe they buy enough to get seats on the board and things can develop from there.

    Even hostile takeovers are still subject to regulatory approval.

    This marriage is canceled. Get over it. Nvidia has.
  • Oxford Guy - Monday, February 28, 2022 - link

    'Get over it. Nvidia has.'

    Is that from one of your crystal balls?

    So many ridiculous pat statements.
  • Qasar - Friday, March 4, 2022 - link

    " So many ridiculous pat statements. " again you are the pro, hypocrite
  • HardwareDufus - Monday, February 14, 2022 - link

    I don't see why this deal was nixed.... AMD was allowed to buy Xilinx (49B).

    this is the AMD/Intel duopoly being protected.... This isn't about ensuring there is competition in the marketplace.

    Perhaps it was felt this would affect the Samsungs, Apples, MediaTeks and Qualcomms of the world if Nvidia were to do something with Arm licensing.
  • mode_13h - Tuesday, February 15, 2022 - link

    The difference between ARM and Xilinx is that the former licenses ISA and cores used across the industry, while the latter mostly just sells complete and self-contained chips. There's really no comparison.

    It should be obvious, if you think about just how many products from how many different chip makers have ARM cores, that the Nvidia/ARM acquisition gives Nvidia too much power and competitive advantage.

    > Perhaps it was felt this would affect the Samsungs, Apples, MediaTeks and
    > Qualcomms of the world if Nvidia were to do something with Arm licensing.

    It's not only about the big players. ARM has thousands of customers, most of whom you probably haven't even heard of. And yes, Nvidia could mess with licensing fees and availability windows of ARM's IP to advantage themselves, but they also would be privy to details of upcoming products from their competitors that would give them more insight than they should have.

    Think of it like cars: it's like if 90% of auto makers used motors from one vendor and then Tesla goes and buys them up. Now, all of the other car makers have to collaborate and do business with their competitor to get motors for their new models. Now, where that analogy breaks down is that it's a lot easier to switch to a different motor supplier (or design & build your own) than it is to change CPU ISA, due to the massive amounts of software involved.

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