Interesting, but the market for write-capable optical media is probably not as big as it was when the first CD-Rs were released since there are lots of other options for high capacity "sneaker-net" storage around.
It's getting a decent amount of interest for medium-term (i.e. non-archival) cold-stoarge, as you can grab a specific file from an optic disc far more quickly than you can spool along a tape, even with the added delay of loading the drives.
Not as big, but CDs were THE format back then. There's still a sizeable market, albeit much smaller. Optical storage also has price on its side (just) and for long term storage is much more reliable.
Still quite relevant tech. I will be buying and using these to create a personal and family archive. I also think companies might turn to using this tech in a different form for data archiving as the M-disc form of it can last for 1000 years.. more if store in inert conditions I suppose. Think big sheets of crystal that sit as slides with interlocking prism which direct the laser to specific points using IBMs optical chip tech.
Imagine a time capsule filled with helium, a 100 disc spool, rollable solar panels, rollable eink colour screens, SoC on kapton tape computers. 1 disc on rebooting humanity from the stone age to a "green tech" age in 10-30 years, 99 discs for everything else from science to hobbies, flash cards for establishing language picture maps and something like that tablet Paul Atriedes had in Dune which was instructing him using visual, audio and narrative slides (burrow bush..).
Every now and then, there are geniuses who grew up in complete isolation with no outside influence and invented their own complete and advanced engineering mathematics from scratch. So seal the tube with an equation based locking mechanism.. so that tube is only for capable minds to open.
Also break it up into stages, so 1 stage math lock 2 stage language lock 3 stage ethics lock 4 stage culture lock 5 stage machinist lock, machine a specifically shaped key 6 stage electricity lock, upgrade the key with magnetic inserts to power the lock and push the button 7 stage tech lock, use the properties of the key, electrical lock to decipher a digital pattern which is a decryption key
They are only 50% of the price of a 128GB MicroSD. write once vs write many bad access time vs flash not sure about read/write bandwidth, but the SD is no slouch there either... not sure which one retains data better (burnable CDs/DVDs were actually pretty bad, most of them with an expected shelf life after burn of ~5 years top if kept in a dark and dry environment)
A flash cell is worse if anything... over time the charge in a flash cell does degrade to the point that it can't be read. Flash should never be used for anything other than short term storage.
If you want to archive anything on disc, you should be using M-DISC Blurays... they are about twice as resilient as regular discs theoretically good for 1000 years stored in the dark at least that's what they advertise.
Optical discs are no longer the medium of choice for Joe User to carry around his stash of funny cat videos, but they are still widely used in professional IT, government, and anywhere else where data security is a concern. If you have a job where you're not allowed to talk about the work you do, there is almost certainly a security officer who checks all the media you bring in to check for malware, and checks all the media you take out to ensure it doesn't contain any new data that it didn't have when you brought it in. As datasets continue to grow in size, there is an increasing need for high-capacity W.O.R.M. media to transport that data in a secure manner.
True... and only one disk is required for playing, so no swapping.
Still... with all the future PS and X being - they should, right? - proper 4K machines, amount of data will raise further. textures, pre-rendered cut scenes and whatnot. There will always be requirement for more storage.
If only internet was 100% reliable without DATA CAPS and throttling on specific services. If only the magical network you speak of was equally available in every part of the world. If only I didn't have to worry about DRM interfering with gameplay when my internet connection isn't available.
There's no point explaining that to such people. They never leave urban areas and live in well serviced areas. To them, what they see as the world (other than parts they wouldn't bother going to) is always connected.
I really wish my home internet was faster. I only have 700/400 Mbps for $9.34 (in today's exchange rate). I'm so sad because of data caps - on my mobile (home internet doesn't have any... why it would have?). After first 50GB it slows down to mere 25 Mbps :( It's also expensive - $37/mo with 12 months contract, LG V30 included. It's so hard to live in 3rd world country.
If you don't go by the idiotic maps that count LTE as a true broadband service, a huge chunk of the population in the US doesn't have true Internet service.
I'm sorry, I don't count a service with a 20GB cap as the baseline as a real Internet service. It is a fixed spectrum with fixed capacity. The data caps serve a purpose, but that capacity limit is what prevents LTE from being an actual solution.
Geographically, most of the USA doesn't have adequate service, population wise I think it's like 33% doesn't.
Those are infrequent events. Sure, there is a balance of cost versus data security, but how many geomagnetic storms with global consequences have there been in recorded history?
Once. Pretty much. In the 19th century. Was a pretty big deal, auroras in Cuba and whatnot. The supposed rate of solar events that large is one every 500 years.
"But I wonder what the longevity of one vs the other is? And transfer rates between the two?"
BD-Rs, especially those designed as archival grade, can last anywhere between 50 and 150 years depending on the disc. SSDs, on the other hand, are generally only rated for 10 years at the most, with the cheapest TLC-based storage bringing up the rear.
Transfer rates are a toss-up. BD-R recording isn't especially fast, but at the edges you're looking at around 70MB/sec. There are TLC-based drives out there that are certainly slower than this. But drives built closer to true SSD standards can definitely sustain over 70MB/sec.
In reality with new shrinked flash memory in the 1Y class, the retention time without power connection is limited to some months. Flash memory IS NOT A RELIABLE MEDIA TO STORE DATA FOR A LONG TIME! Use standard magnetic HDD if you do not want to use optical discs or tapes. Though even HDD have the problem that can suddenly broke down (so you need a double copy on a different disk, so storage cost doubles). Optical disks are and remain the cheapest and most reliable media for long time storage/backups. That's why industry still invest in them though in consumer market all are about flash here and flash there which is undoubtedly faster but that with shrinking multi level cells and thus higher error rate to be corrected with ever more complex algorithm, it is more a game of probability than of secure data write/read, something I will never trust for my data to be stored permanently (or for a long time).
I hope the new 3D Xpoint technology will soon be available at decent costs so to completely replace flash memory technology.
Flash\NAND memory has decent retention if kept in ideal environmental conditions (low humidity, temperature, and light)
But modern NAND is becoming pretty bad with retention. TLC\QLC are rated in single-digit years for shelf-life. Optical media is rated in double, and even triple digit years for shelf-life.
Depends on what you use for. I can't see flash thumb drives with 128GB capacity going away for $10, which would be the right price if an optical disk of the same capacity would cost $3. If you use optical media for backups of important data (Vs cheap storage for useless data retention) you would try to use the best media brands nonetheless, and spending $15 for 100GB for reliable capacity is not that much.
BTW, for cheap useless data storage, some single layer BR already are about $5 for a pack of 6 = about 150GB
This is awesome. I'm glad there is still development on this front. I know it doesn't pertain to most. But I started using optical discs for my homelab for archiving certain data as an alternative to tapes.
128GB BD-R at $13 (10GB/$ not including the burner, works on like 0.001% of PCs, I'm sure rural grandma without Internet is part of that 0.001% amirite?) --versus-- 4TB ext HDD at $100 (40GB/$, works on every PC in existence)
Wow, totally seeing mass BD-R adoption right there. *snicker*
I wanted to post something similar. Just did a price comparison of current BD-R vs HD. BD-R is more expensive. I'm in Norway, but I guess prices are similar in other places. S-ATA HDD: 0.26 NOK/TB BD-R 25GB: 0.28 NOK/TB BR-R 50GB: 0.43 NOK/TB BR-R XL 100GB: 1.0 NOK/TB 100GB medium is already four times more expensive per TB than hard drives, is read-only, and that does not include the cost of any burner. I doubt 128GB discs would be any cheaper. I do understand that they're not mainly trying to compete with HDD, but that also means they will never reach consumers, which I first thought was the point with this launch. For the few use cases when a HDD is too heavy (e.g. sending in the mail, or carrying with you all day) I assume a flash or memory card would work better, and can be re-used.
SONY ODA format is on the market for long time now. It is basically cartridge with multiple 128GB BDR(E)XL discs. The reason why SONY decided now (after so many years) to bring 128GB discs to "mass" market is most probably lack of interest by enterprise segment...
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PeachNCream - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Interesting, but the market for write-capable optical media is probably not as big as it was when the first CD-Rs were released since there are lots of other options for high capacity "sneaker-net" storage around.edzieba - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
It's getting a decent amount of interest for medium-term (i.e. non-archival) cold-stoarge, as you can grab a specific file from an optic disc far more quickly than you can spool along a tape, even with the added delay of loading the drives.Tams80 - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
Not as big, but CDs were THE format back then. There's still a sizeable market, albeit much smaller. Optical storage also has price on its side (just) and for long term storage is much more reliable.LagnusDwanderer - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Still quite relevant tech. I will be buying and using these to create a personal and family archive. I also think companies might turn to using this tech in a different form for data archiving as the M-disc form of it can last for 1000 years.. more if store in inert conditions I suppose. Think big sheets of crystal that sit as slides with interlocking prism which direct the laser to specific points using IBMs optical chip tech.Imagine a time capsule filled with helium, a 100 disc spool, rollable solar panels, rollable eink colour screens, SoC on kapton tape computers. 1 disc on rebooting humanity from the stone age to a "green tech" age in 10-30 years, 99 discs for everything else from science to hobbies, flash cards for establishing language picture maps and something like that tablet Paul Atriedes had in Dune which was instructing him using visual, audio and narrative slides (burrow bush..).
Every now and then, there are geniuses who grew up in complete isolation with no outside influence and invented their own complete and advanced engineering mathematics from scratch. So seal the tube with an equation based locking mechanism.. so that tube is only for capable minds to open.
Also break it up into stages, so
1 stage math lock
2 stage language lock
3 stage ethics lock
4 stage culture lock
5 stage machinist lock, machine a specifically shaped key
6 stage electricity lock, upgrade the key with magnetic inserts to power the lock and push the button
7 stage tech lock, use the properties of the key, electrical lock to decipher a digital pattern which is a decryption key
xiaohongshu - Sunday, May 1, 2022 - link
Mind = Blownfrenchy_2001 - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 - link
They are only 50% of the price of a 128GB MicroSD.write once vs write many
bad access time vs flash
not sure about read/write bandwidth, but the SD is no slouch there either...
not sure which one retains data better (burnable CDs/DVDs were actually pretty bad, most of them with an expected shelf life after burn of ~5 years top if kept in a dark and dry environment)
cb88 - Monday, June 10, 2019 - link
A flash cell is worse if anything... over time the charge in a flash cell does degrade to the point that it can't be read. Flash should never be used for anything other than short term storage.If you want to archive anything on disc, you should be using M-DISC Blurays... they are about twice as resilient as regular discs theoretically good for 1000 years stored in the dark at least that's what they advertise.
xiaohongshu - Sunday, May 1, 2022 - link
What about m-disc archival reliability?deusexaethera - Wednesday, September 25, 2019 - link
Optical discs are no longer the medium of choice for Joe User to carry around his stash of funny cat videos, but they are still widely used in professional IT, government, and anywhere else where data security is a concern. If you have a job where you're not allowed to talk about the work you do, there is almost certainly a security officer who checks all the media you bring in to check for malware, and checks all the media you take out to ensure it doesn't contain any new data that it didn't have when you brought it in. As datasets continue to grow in size, there is an increasing need for high-capacity W.O.R.M. media to transport that data in a secure manner.iwod - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Were there any PS4 / Pro Games that ever needed two BD? i.e 50GB ( Assuming all PS4 BD are 25GB )?DigitalFreak - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Red Dead Redemption 2 is 2 discsyeeeeman - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Red dead redemption 2 comes with 2 BD dual layer disks, each 50GB in size.Lolimaster - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
You will need to install it anyways.nikon133 - Sunday, November 11, 2018 - link
True... and only one disk is required for playing, so no swapping.Still... with all the future PS and X being - they should, right? - proper 4K machines, amount of data will raise further. textures, pre-rendered cut scenes and whatnot. There will always be requirement for more storage.
TEAMSWITCHER - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
If only there was a world wide network of computers, that allowed you to download a massive amount of data as you needed it.SAMMICHES25 - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
If only internet was 100% reliable without DATA CAPS and throttling on specific services. If only the magical network you speak of was equally available in every part of the world. If only I didn't have to worry about DRM interfering with gameplay when my internet connection isn't available.ryrynz - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Calm down there chief.Tams80 - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
There's no point explaining that to such people. They never leave urban areas and live in well serviced areas. To them, what they see as the world (other than parts they wouldn't bother going to) is always connected.Samus - Monday, November 12, 2018 - link
Sounds like you need to move to a city.Vatharian - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
I really wish my home internet was faster. I only have 700/400 Mbps for $9.34 (in today's exchange rate). I'm so sad because of data caps - on my mobile (home internet doesn't have any... why it would have?). After first 50GB it slows down to mere 25 Mbps :( It's also expensive - $37/mo with 12 months contract, LG V30 included. It's so hard to live in 3rd world country.xiaohongshu - Sunday, May 1, 2022 - link
With the pandemic, life is difficult, EVERYWHERE0ldman79 - Tuesday, November 13, 2018 - link
Sammiches25 is correct.If you don't go by the idiotic maps that count LTE as a true broadband service, a huge chunk of the population in the US doesn't have true Internet service.
I'm sorry, I don't count a service with a 20GB cap as the baseline as a real Internet service. It is a fixed spectrum with fixed capacity. The data caps serve a purpose, but that capacity limit is what prevents LTE from being an actual solution.
Geographically, most of the USA doesn't have adequate service, population wise I think it's like 33% doesn't.
bunnyfubbles - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernethigh latency, sure, but potentially competitive throughput, also arguably more secure
SigmundEXactos - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
And I guess 128GB memory cards are closer to $20. But I wonder what the longevity of one vs the other is? And transfer rates between the two?neblogai - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Also, how safe memory cards are if a huge electromagnetic storm were to happen?PeachNCream - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Those are infrequent events. Sure, there is a balance of cost versus data security, but how many geomagnetic storms with global consequences have there been in recorded history?UkeNeverSeme - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Once. Pretty much. In the 19th century. Was a pretty big deal, auroras in Cuba and whatnot. The supposed rate of solar events that large is one every 500 years.Ryan Smith - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
"But I wonder what the longevity of one vs the other is? And transfer rates between the two?"BD-Rs, especially those designed as archival grade, can last anywhere between 50 and 150 years depending on the disc. SSDs, on the other hand, are generally only rated for 10 years at the most, with the cheapest TLC-based storage bringing up the rear.
Transfer rates are a toss-up. BD-R recording isn't especially fast, but at the edges you're looking at around 70MB/sec. There are TLC-based drives out there that are certainly slower than this. But drives built closer to true SSD standards can definitely sustain over 70MB/sec.
CiccioB - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
In reality with new shrinked flash memory in the 1Y class, the retention time without power connection is limited to some months.Flash memory IS NOT A RELIABLE MEDIA TO STORE DATA FOR A LONG TIME!
Use standard magnetic HDD if you do not want to use optical discs or tapes. Though even HDD have the problem that can suddenly broke down (so you need a double copy on a different disk, so storage cost doubles).
Optical disks are and remain the cheapest and most reliable media for long time storage/backups.
That's why industry still invest in them though in consumer market all are about flash here and flash there which is undoubtedly faster but that with shrinking multi level cells and thus higher error rate to be corrected with ever more complex algorithm, it is more a game of probability than of secure data write/read, something I will never trust for my data to be stored permanently (or for a long time).
I hope the new 3D Xpoint technology will soon be available at decent costs so to completely replace flash memory technology.
jeremyshaw - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
Lol. 3D Xpoint only has about 3 months of power-off retention.xiaohongshu - Sunday, May 1, 2022 - link
Nice post😎👍xiaohongshu - Sunday, May 1, 2022 - link
Nice post😎👍Samus - Monday, November 12, 2018 - link
Flash\NAND memory has decent retention if kept in ideal environmental conditions (low humidity, temperature, and light)But modern NAND is becoming pretty bad with retention. TLC\QLC are rated in single-digit years for shelf-life. Optical media is rated in double, and even triple digit years for shelf-life.
p1esk - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
I wonder if it's suitable for distributing future 8k movies.Lolimaster - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
Optical media is dead till they bump again the capacity to 100-150GB per layer and each disk at $3-5.nandnandnand - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
This weaksauce disc would have been impressive over a decade ago. Now we could use holographic media capable of storing petabytes.CiccioB - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
Depends on what you use for. I can't see flash thumb drives with 128GB capacity going away for $10, which would be the right price if an optical disk of the same capacity would cost $3.If you use optical media for backups of important data (Vs cheap storage for useless data retention) you would try to use the best media brands nonetheless, and spending $15 for 100GB for reliable capacity is not that much.
BTW, for cheap useless data storage, some single layer BR already are about $5 for a pack of 6 = about 150GB
CheapSushi - Friday, November 9, 2018 - link
This is awesome. I'm glad there is still development on this front. I know it doesn't pertain to most. But I started using optical discs for my homelab for archiving certain data as an alternative to tapes.13Gigatons - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
I used to love BluRay, it feels so dated now. That kind of scares me. I wonder what else falls by the wayside.StrangerGuy - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
128GB BD-R at $13 (10GB/$ not including the burner, works on like 0.001% of PCs, I'm sure rural grandma without Internet is part of that 0.001% amirite?)--versus--
4TB ext HDD at $100 (40GB/$, works on every PC in existence)
Wow, totally seeing mass BD-R adoption right there. *snicker*
AdditionalPylons - Wednesday, November 14, 2018 - link
I wanted to post something similar. Just did a price comparison of current BD-R vs HD. BD-R is more expensive. I'm in Norway, but I guess prices are similar in other places.S-ATA HDD: 0.26 NOK/TB
BD-R 25GB: 0.28 NOK/TB
BR-R 50GB: 0.43 NOK/TB
BR-R XL 100GB: 1.0 NOK/TB
100GB medium is already four times more expensive per TB than hard drives, is read-only, and that does not include the cost of any burner. I doubt 128GB discs would be any cheaper.
I do understand that they're not mainly trying to compete with HDD, but that also means they will never reach consumers, which I first thought was the point with this launch.
For the few use cases when a HDD is too heavy (e.g. sending in the mail, or carrying with you all day) I assume a flash or memory card would work better, and can be re-used.
Darcey R. Epperly - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
128 GB is not enough. 1 TB or 10 TB per disc, that would be a good backup media.trackersoft - Saturday, November 10, 2018 - link
SONY ODA format is on the market for long time now.It is basically cartridge with multiple 128GB BDR(E)XL discs.
The reason why SONY decided now (after so many years) to bring 128GB discs to "mass" market is most probably lack of interest by enterprise segment...