I'm all for quiet cases, and technology/innovations that push that forward, but at the same time, these kinds of cases are in a weird place right now.
Logically, an alternative to just making a PC fanless for near 0 noise (remember, GPUs and other electrical components still exhibit some degree of coil whine) would be acoustically isolating the PC away from the user.
Ex: PC in the closet, thunderbolt I/O hub is the only thing outside the closet and is where you hook up monitor/peripherals to, and the thunderbolt I/O hub itself has no fans, so no noise. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGt9o0XUl5g) Ex2: PC in another room, connected to only switch and power, fanless thinclient remotes you into the PC you want to use, although this incurs some higher degree of latency. Ex3: Lowest RPM fans (or none), in a watercooled setup where the radiators try to (as best they can) passively radiate heat, still has some pump noise, but you can try to dampen the noise around it with some sound isolation, I guess. Ex4: Routing watercooling radiator/tubes to another location from the main PC so the user is still acoustically isolated from fan noise. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0ZW2z9y_vU) Ex5: Just buying a prebuilt fanless PC. Apparently the Compulab ones are pretty decent/good. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35OyZzCvG0g)
These are all just options that (may) require less money and are justifiable alternatives to making a high-powered custom PC into a fanless one. Which then really puts into perspective how much market a custom fanless PC case can really get?
If a premium-aluminum custom PC case company like CaseLabs can go under due to tariffs and low volume sales (which targets only the high-end PC market), how is anyone else with a smaller market (fanless PC case which targets only the high-end PC market that really cares about low-to-no noise) able to compete?
Ex1: A "walk-in-closet" or a whole other room is something a bit different to what most people assume you mean by "closet". If you just cram a 300W - 500W PC into your average closet, that thing overheats and throttles in a few minutes of gameplay. Linus basically had the ability to make a whole new room with plasterboard and give it a nice big volume where the air can gradually heat up and get a nice equilibrium. And true fanless cases are either a novelty for people who like to pay extra for it or done for hazardous environments reasons (dust and water spray). Your examples are good for people who like to invest some time and volume into getting a quiet PC.
The thunderbolt setup is not exactly cheap. Since Thunderbolt 3 cables can only go up to 2 meters you need a $70 Thunderbolt 3->Thunderbolt 2 adapter, then a $300 optical 10m Thunderbolt 2 cable, then the actual docks are about $200 minimum. And if you have a 4K monitor then video alone will saturate 90% of that 20gbps Thunderbolt 2 link which leaves 2gbps for all of your USB ports to share.
I've opted to build my rackspace in the basement utility area (pretty constant 68F year round). Once I install a return air vent to the furnace above the rack, I might try a fanless build.
The primary advantage of a fanless PC, in my opinion, is dust. Inside there will be none if it is isolated.
This is a big deal in FILTHY production\manufacturing environments. From shipping PC's to CAD\CAM controllers, they all benefit from having no intake port in a warehouse\plant.
It definitely doesn't look like it'll be a sealed case. They'll want to allow hot air to naturally leave the case and the power supplies in their photos also are open. I'm sure it'll be possible to make a sealed case, but they're going to have to add more fins on the panels to dissipate heat from the air.
I hate to be that guy (a blatant lie, I love it) but 0dB doesn't mean noiseless. It's a log scale; a truly noiseless system would be negative infinity dB, 0dB just means it's exactly as noisy as some reference level.
Yes, and when talking about PC noise the reference level is usually chosen to be the background noise at the place where the PC is installed. Which means that the PC + background is exactly as noisy as the background alone. Isn't this what we understand by a noiseless PC?
I'm pretty sure no one expects their PC to remove noise from the environment where you install it, so this is the best that can be done.
Actually, a set of noise-cancelling mic/speaker elements could be the easiest solution to noise. I am more concerned about reliability and dust collection property of fans.
That is true if an _absolute_ sound pressure level is expressed in dB. Absolute sound pressure level is used to measure sound exposure at a given location or under certain circumstances (for example at a work place).
Decibel can also be used to express _changes_ in a value. Due to the way sound pressures from various sources add, this is the preferred way to express the noise generated by a device, which will never be the sole source of noise. The absolute sound pressure level you will be exposed to will be the sum of the absolute sound pressure level at the location where you install the device plus the contribution of the device expressed as a change in sound pressure level. This case seems to be advertised to induce a change in SPL of 0dB - its silent.
The reason this is likely not true for a real system using these cases will be coil whine, which is always present in components, to various degrees. Most of the time it is actually audible.
Every silent thread I read this and yet neither my 6yr old or 1.5yr old fanless PSU systems make any coil whine noise - or if they do it's not enough to be audible in a quiet room from outside of the case.
So what you're saying is that a "5dB" device will just add 5dB to the already present sound level?
A very silent fan could very well increase the sound level from 0dB to 5dB. But that same fan will also change it from 3dB to 5dB. And from 30dB to 30dB. And from -50dB to 5dB. Is this a 5dB fan or a 0dB fan or a 55dB fan?
I know. As you can see, I just chose the "maximum of the two" in all cases. 0+5=5 3+5=5 30+5=30 -50+5=5
Proving that you can't just market a sound source to "add x decibels" to the existing sound. 0dB can't mean "no change to the existing sound", because 0dB is louder than -50dB and the resulting noise will be 0dB.
< 0 dB doesn't mean it removes noise, but rather that it's below the reference level. Of course, measuring that would need to be done in a different way or space than where you measured the reference level, but it needn't involve "removing noise from the environment".
As for why a < 0 dB rating could be desirable - consider that acoustic measurements typically involve A-weighted equalization, yet human hearing extends well outside this range.
Just because something has a 0 dB rating therefore doesn't mean it's completely inaudible. There could be higher-pitched noises, emanating from the heat pipes, for instance. A friend of mine has just such a complaint about his fanless laptop/convertible. Either that, or perhaps its coil whine. I haven't heard it, but he thinks it's the heat pipes.
The sound level is also measured at some distance (1m?). So if it's 0dB at 1m away, and assuming 0dB is inaudible for you, you could still hear it if you get closer.
These are really neat, however the larger editions that cool the GPU appear to have a major flaw- no GPU VRM cooling. This can severely limit performance as well as the life of your graphics card. Hopefully they improve this before they hit the market!
If you love your electrolytic capacitors on your mainboard... you will spend them some regulated air flow. It's easy to build a 0dB computer with active cooling and standard components. The loudest parts were the hard drives. Without them, low spinning fans and a good case, you won't be able to hear your computer in a silent room either.
Fanless cases are not just about 0dB. As they can be completely sealed with no moving parts, there's zero dust built-up and zero maintenance required throughout the computer's lifetime.
Lifetime being defined as "until something breaks"? I agree with UpSpin's point about VRM cooling. Lack of any air movement or other form of cooling will likely shorten the lifespan of those components.
Definitly the case have been inspired by the looks of some high end audio amps. Those can dissapate 500 watts in heat so it is intresting idea for high end oc cases.
Actually the r/homelab sub-forum at Reddit could benefit because while most have towering racks, they also have the noise that goes with it. The opposite of what one wants in a living space.
I love passive cooling but nearly $800 for the UP10 is just not going to sell. Also according to the company's own specs the UP10 is only capable of GPU TDP no higher than 120W, or max at GTX1660Ti, which is hardly top of the range.
I think Zotac had a nearly identical design years ago. That case too was also very expensive and not able to handle the high end GPU. It did not catch on.
The article made a mistake. The heat ceiling of UP10 is 250W "combined" for both GPU/CPU. The power ceilings cited in the article is misleading as the other part of the GPU/CPU combo needs to be at the low end of its heat envelop when the other component is at its high end, according to the company's online store.
"Is the product broken? Just replace it with a new one. No need to fix it."
I know disposable tech products has become the norm. But, in DIY PCs, I think it's sort of assumed that there's at least some theoretical degree of repairability. I guess I wonder why this design principle was seen as worth highlighting. Just how common is it that their products break and need to be replaced with a new one?
BTW, that page also claims the company is just one guy:
"Turmetal found by Chinese Overclocking Player & Professional hardware Reporter & Player Huang Chunhui (Mical.Wong) in Shanghai. And did everything you can imagine by oneself. ..."
I think the value is usage in dusty environments as it doesn't need to move much air as conventional PCs, like large heatsinks vs small heatsinks with same cooling performance Noise can be easily mitigated with large fans and/or isolation to the user.
I dont understand 0 level builds. be quiet have a fan that can do 59.3 CFM @ 10.7 dBA @ 550 RPM this is no different than 0 level for our perception and would half the weight & cost....
Too bad the all-passively cooled oil immersion approach never took off. I always liked the idea: just submerse the whole shebang in 20-30 liters (or more) of high quality mineral oil (dielectric, non-corrosive) and allow for heat exchange to the environment by using an (oil-tight) aluminum case. The major downside is that any hardware change gets a bit messy. But, for a build-and-forget system, not a bad approach.
In HPC, it seems to be gaining popularity. For them, the main argument is probably density, and perhaps it becomes simpler and cheaper to immerse the whole thing in fluid than to snake tubing through all the CPUs, GPUs, VRMs, memory, etc.
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51 Comments
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akvadrako - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Looks good. If I'm reading it correctly the UP5 is only about 300 euro.JoeyJoJo123 - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
I'm all for quiet cases, and technology/innovations that push that forward, but at the same time, these kinds of cases are in a weird place right now.Logically, an alternative to just making a PC fanless for near 0 noise (remember, GPUs and other electrical components still exhibit some degree of coil whine) would be acoustically isolating the PC away from the user.
Ex: PC in the closet, thunderbolt I/O hub is the only thing outside the closet and is where you hook up monitor/peripherals to, and the thunderbolt I/O hub itself has no fans, so no noise. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGt9o0XUl5g)
Ex2: PC in another room, connected to only switch and power, fanless thinclient remotes you into the PC you want to use, although this incurs some higher degree of latency.
Ex3: Lowest RPM fans (or none), in a watercooled setup where the radiators try to (as best they can) passively radiate heat, still has some pump noise, but you can try to dampen the noise around it with some sound isolation, I guess.
Ex4: Routing watercooling radiator/tubes to another location from the main PC so the user is still acoustically isolated from fan noise. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0ZW2z9y_vU)
Ex5: Just buying a prebuilt fanless PC. Apparently the Compulab ones are pretty decent/good. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35OyZzCvG0g)
These are all just options that (may) require less money and are justifiable alternatives to making a high-powered custom PC into a fanless one. Which then really puts into perspective how much market a custom fanless PC case can really get?
If a premium-aluminum custom PC case company like CaseLabs can go under due to tariffs and low volume sales (which targets only the high-end PC market), how is anyone else with a smaller market (fanless PC case which targets only the high-end PC market that really cares about low-to-no noise) able to compete?
Sivar - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
This may be the most informative, useful post I have ever seen in an Anandtech article comment.Death666Angel - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Ex1: A "walk-in-closet" or a whole other room is something a bit different to what most people assume you mean by "closet". If you just cram a 300W - 500W PC into your average closet, that thing overheats and throttles in a few minutes of gameplay. Linus basically had the ability to make a whole new room with plasterboard and give it a nice big volume where the air can gradually heat up and get a nice equilibrium.And true fanless cases are either a novelty for people who like to pay extra for it or done for hazardous environments reasons (dust and water spray). Your examples are good for people who like to invest some time and volume into getting a quiet PC.
notashill - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
The thunderbolt setup is not exactly cheap. Since Thunderbolt 3 cables can only go up to 2 meters you need a $70 Thunderbolt 3->Thunderbolt 2 adapter, then a $300 optical 10m Thunderbolt 2 cable, then the actual docks are about $200 minimum. And if you have a 4K monitor then video alone will saturate 90% of that 20gbps Thunderbolt 2 link which leaves 2gbps for all of your USB ports to share.nathanddrews - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
I've opted to build my rackspace in the basement utility area (pretty constant 68F year round). Once I install a return air vent to the furnace above the rack, I might try a fanless build.Samus - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
The primary advantage of a fanless PC, in my opinion, is dust. Inside there will be none if it is isolated.This is a big deal in FILTHY production\manufacturing environments. From shipping PC's to CAD\CAM controllers, they all benefit from having no intake port in a warehouse\plant.
khanikun - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
It definitely doesn't look like it'll be a sealed case. They'll want to allow hot air to naturally leave the case and the power supplies in their photos also are open. I'm sure it'll be possible to make a sealed case, but they're going to have to add more fins on the panels to dissipate heat from the air.mode_13h - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
> If a premium-aluminum custom PC case company like CaseLabs can go under due to tariffs and low volume salesBecause it's just one guy, and he's based in China?
1smolpacket - Monday, June 24, 2019 - link
If you’re in the hardware business being based in China is an enormous advantage.lanless - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
I hate to be that guy (a blatant lie, I love it) but 0dB doesn't mean noiseless. It's a log scale; a truly noiseless system would be negative infinity dB, 0dB just means it's exactly as noisy as some reference level.JanW1 - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Yes, and when talking about PC noise the reference level is usually chosen to be the background noise at the place where the PC is installed. Which means that the PC + background is exactly as noisy as the background alone. Isn't this what we understand by a noiseless PC?I'm pretty sure no one expects their PC to remove noise from the environment where you install it, so this is the best that can be done.
peevee - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Actually, a set of noise-cancelling mic/speaker elements could be the easiest solution to noise.I am more concerned about reliability and dust collection property of fans.
ajp_anton - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
0dB isn't just "some reference", the reference is well defined and so 0dB refers to a specific sound pressure level.Also, dB doesn't add easily because of the logarithmic scale. If PC + background is exactly as noisy as the background, the PC needs to be -inf dB.
JanW1 - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
That is true if an _absolute_ sound pressure level is expressed in dB. Absolute sound pressure level is used to measure sound exposure at a given location or under certain circumstances (for example at a work place).Decibel can also be used to express _changes_ in a value. Due to the way sound pressures from various sources add, this is the preferred way to express the noise generated by a device, which will never be the sole source of noise. The absolute sound pressure level you will be exposed to will be the sum of the absolute sound pressure level at the location where you install the device plus the contribution of the device expressed as a change in sound pressure level. This case seems to be advertised to induce a change in SPL of 0dB - its silent.
The reason this is likely not true for a real system using these cases will be coil whine, which is always present in components, to various degrees. Most of the time it is actually audible.
Icehawk - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
Every silent thread I read this and yet neither my 6yr old or 1.5yr old fanless PSU systems make any coil whine noise - or if they do it's not enough to be audible in a quiet room from outside of the case.ajp_anton - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
So what you're saying is that a "5dB" device will just add 5dB to the already present sound level?A very silent fan could very well increase the sound level from 0dB to 5dB. But that same fan will also change it from 3dB to 5dB. And from 30dB to 30dB. And from -50dB to 5dB. Is this a 5dB fan or a 0dB fan or a 55dB fan?
mode_13h - Sunday, June 23, 2019 - link
It's logarithmic, so addition is used to apply gain or attenuation.When computing the combined SPL of multiple noise sources, unless they're close in magnitude, I think you can safely just take the maximum of the two.
ajp_anton - Sunday, June 23, 2019 - link
I know. As you can see, I just chose the "maximum of the two" in all cases.0+5=5
3+5=5
30+5=30
-50+5=5
Proving that you can't just market a sound source to "add x decibels" to the existing sound. 0dB can't mean "no change to the existing sound", because 0dB is louder than -50dB and the resulting noise will be 0dB.
mode_13h - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
< 0 dB doesn't mean it removes noise, but rather that it's below the reference level. Of course, measuring that would need to be done in a different way or space than where you measured the reference level, but it needn't involve "removing noise from the environment".As for why a < 0 dB rating could be desirable - consider that acoustic measurements typically involve A-weighted equalization, yet human hearing extends well outside this range.
Just because something has a 0 dB rating therefore doesn't mean it's completely inaudible. There could be higher-pitched noises, emanating from the heat pipes, for instance. A friend of mine has just such a complaint about his fanless laptop/convertible. Either that, or perhaps its coil whine. I haven't heard it, but he thinks it's the heat pipes.
ajp_anton - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
The sound level is also measured at some distance (1m?). So if it's 0dB at 1m away, and assuming 0dB is inaudible for you, you could still hear it if you get closer.cbm80 - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
You are technically correct, which is the best kind of correct.s.yu - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
I'd love to agree with that but somehow think there's some catch...Drkrieger01 - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
These are really neat, however the larger editions that cool the GPU appear to have a major flaw- no GPU VRM cooling. This can severely limit performance as well as the life of your graphics card. Hopefully they improve this before they hit the market!UpSpin - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
If you love your electrolytic capacitors on your mainboard... you will spend them some regulated air flow.It's easy to build a 0dB computer with active cooling and standard components. The loudest parts were the hard drives. Without them, low spinning fans and a good case, you won't be able to hear your computer in a silent room either.
lukedriftwood - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Fanless cases are not just about 0dB. As they can be completely sealed with no moving parts, there's zero dust built-up and zero maintenance required throughout the computer's lifetime.mode_13h - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
Lifetime being defined as "until something breaks"? I agree with UpSpin's point about VRM cooling. Lack of any air movement or other form of cooling will likely shorten the lifespan of those components.s.yu - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
Are these completely sealed? There's still that...khanikun - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
Except none of what they are showing is completely sealed.mobutu - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
very nice, I'm so buying one of the big-ones when they'll become available later in europe.thanks @tureMetal
peevee - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
I wanted to say that UP5 is my next case, but then I saw that it is horizontal...GreenReaper - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Balance it on its edge? Or buy a $999 stand for it? It's solid metal, after all...RollingCamel - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
I'm searching for a system with M12 POE ports and a decent GPGPU for automotive purposes.This one is closest to the requirements.
https://www.mpl.ch/getpdf-login.php?docID=603
Alien959 - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Definitly the case have been inspired by the looks of some high end audio amps. Those can dissapate 500 watts in heat so it is intresting idea for high end oc cases.Threska - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
Actually the r/homelab sub-forum at Reddit could benefit because while most have towering racks, they also have the noise that goes with it. The opposite of what one wants in a living space.wr3zzz - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
I love passive cooling but nearly $800 for the UP10 is just not going to sell. Also according to the company's own specs the UP10 is only capable of GPU TDP no higher than 120W, or max at GTX1660Ti, which is hardly top of the range.I think Zotac had a nearly identical design years ago. That case too was also very expensive and not able to handle the high end GPU. It did not catch on.
wr3zzz - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
The article made a mistake. The heat ceiling of UP10 is 250W "combined" for both GPU/CPU. The power ceilings cited in the article is misleading as the other part of the GPU/CPU combo needs to be at the low end of its heat envelop when the other component is at its high end, according to the company's online store.ajp_anton - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
So it's completely fanless... what exactly is making 0dB of noise? That Toshiba drive looks like an SSD, so no HDD either.mode_13h - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
From http://turemetal.com/about_en.html"replace it with a new one if need fix"
"Is the product broken? Just replace it with a new one. No need to fix it."
I know disposable tech products has become the norm. But, in DIY PCs, I think it's sort of assumed that there's at least some theoretical degree of repairability. I guess I wonder why this design principle was seen as worth highlighting. Just how common is it that their products break and need to be replaced with a new one?
mode_13h - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
BTW, that page also claims the company is just one guy:"Turmetal found by Chinese Overclocking Player & Professional hardware Reporter & Player Huang Chunhui (Mical.Wong) in Shanghai. And did everything you can imagine by oneself. ..."
ajp_anton - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
0dB isn't just "some reference", the reference is well defined and so 0dB refers to a specific sound pressure level.Also, dB doesn't add easily because of the logarithmic scale. If PC + background is exactly as noisy as the background, the PC needs to be -inf dB.
ajp_anton - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
This was supposed to be a reply to another post above. Please ignore.zodiacfml - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
I think the value is usage in dusty environments as it doesn't need to move much air as conventional PCs, like large heatsinks vs small heatsinks with same cooling performanceNoise can be easily mitigated with large fans and/or isolation to the user.
mode_13h - Sunday, June 23, 2019 - link
His stuff doesn't seem to be sealed, though. You can get industrial PCs, if you need truly dust-proof cases.kgardas - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
Sweet! Reminds me of Zalman TNN-500 A(F).s.yu - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
Haha, I think I noticed this guy on Taobao last year, but at the time nothing he sold would support over 300W dissipation.konbala - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
This is great.deil - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
I dont understand 0 level builds.be quiet have a fan that can do 59.3 CFM @ 10.7 dBA @ 550 RPM
this is no different than 0 level for our perception and would half the weight & cost....
eastcoast_pete - Friday, June 21, 2019 - link
Too bad the all-passively cooled oil immersion approach never took off. I always liked the idea: just submerse the whole shebang in 20-30 liters (or more) of high quality mineral oil (dielectric, non-corrosive) and allow for heat exchange to the environment by using an (oil-tight) aluminum case. The major downside is that any hardware change gets a bit messy. But, for a build-and-forget system, not a bad approach.mode_13h - Sunday, June 23, 2019 - link
In HPC, it seems to be gaining popularity. For them, the main argument is probably density, and perhaps it becomes simpler and cheaper to immerse the whole thing in fluid than to snake tubing through all the CPUs, GPUs, VRMs, memory, etc.samerakhras - Saturday, June 22, 2019 - link
mh , at that huge size and weight I prefer to use a zero fan chiller cooled PC. no fan noise , no air in , no dust and isolate the chiller