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  • dontlistentome - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    20G USB3 support being mandated would reduce the bandwidth elsewhere. On TB3, fast USB3 support kill PCI/Displayport lanes. It would be the same here.
    Otherwise, nice update, but not a huge leap over TB3 which is now 7 years old.
  • Samus - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    I agree it is underwhelming, definitely an evolutionary update over TB3, but that appears by design as they kept compatibility with previous cables (which isn't a big deal but definitely helps sneak in adoptability.)

    The asymmetric operation, however, is pretty substantial for the niche market that can use it, and impressive they are able to perform that over previous cables because it would mean one TX and RX are next to each other, as typical symmetric operation has the RX and TX segmented from one another for obvious reasons. There is clearly some very tight signaling or impressive error correction going on here.
  • MegasChara - Monday, September 18, 2023 - link

    "There is clearly some very tight signaling or impressive error correction going on here."

    Both.

    https://www.synopsys.com/designware-ip/technical-b...
  • KimGitz - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    Finally. Now we can have eGPU performance viable.
    Will MeteorLake feature Thunderbolt 5?
    240W is enough for gaming.
  • NextGen_Gamer - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    Meteor Lake definitely won't have TB5, at least not at launch, which is supposed to be October 2023. Intel won't even be sending over the final specs to developers/OEMs until Q4 2023, and then actual shipping silicon and products probably in late summer 2024 (as a guess). By that point in time, it makes more sense to ship new products with TB5 based on the next platform Arrow Lake instead of refreshing any older Meteor Lake ones.
  • KimGitz - Saturday, September 16, 2023 - link

    It is a disappointing. I'd rather wait for Arrow Lake since my experience with discrete controllers is not good.
  • Sonic01 - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    No it won't Meteor Lake is basically finished already (it's released in 8 days) and this announcement says expect products in 2024, so no, no TB5 in this years chip released. Arrow Lake will prob come with it this time next year.

    Also, TB3 only throttles current cards by like 5-10%.
  • KimGitz - Saturday, September 16, 2023 - link

    I think the difference is enough to want TB5 over TB4 for eGPUs. I have watched comparison between OCuLink and Thunderbolt 4 and there is a worthwhile difference
  • eddman - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    I've been out of the loop. How do they get 120 Gbps if there are only 4 PCIe 4 lanes, capable of 64 Gbps?
  • evilspoons - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    The system can switch from two lanes upload, two lanes download into three lanes/ one lane. You go from 80+80 to 120+40.

    The bandwidth total is PCI Express and DP, it's not just the PCIe lanes being counted.
  • repoman27 - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    To further clarify what evilspoons said, the Thunderbolt link is a high-speed serial link between two Thunderbolt devices. With Thunderbolt 5, that link can provide up to 160 Gbit/s of aggregate bandwidth configured as either 80 Gbit/s downstream and 80 Gbit/s upstream, or 120 Gbit/s downstream and 40 Gbit/s upstream.

    The Thunderbolt controller then tunnels PCIe and DisplayPort packets over that high-speed serial link. The Barlow Ridge controllers presumably have PCIe Gen4 x4 and DisplayPort UHBR20 x4 interfaces to the host on the back side. The 64 Gbit/s PCIe data limit is due to the PCIe connection to the host, not the Thunderbolt link bandwidth. If the asymmetrical mode wasn't available, the entire link bandwidth could be saturated with just DisplayPort packets. Thunderbolt 5 allows a full 80 Gbit/s DisplayPort link to be tunneled alongside 40 Gbit/s of PCIe data—which is equivalent to the bandwidth of an entire previous generation Thunderbolt 4 link.
  • Samus - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    I think the asymmetric operation is the most interesting component offered here, and the most technically impressive. After doing some research it is achieved using PAM3 encoding which offers a combination of hardware error correction and software-based signal control based on evaluated bandwidth requirements. Somehow they are mapping the 16 data pins, typically 8-tx 8-rx, to 12-tx 4-rx, and maintaining signal integrity, using cables that have existed for what, 7+ years?
  • eddman - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    Ah, I never realized DP has its own lanes.
  • Bernie_71 - Friday, October 6, 2023 - link

    is it possible to have a line architecture with TB5 (i.e. PC - TB dock - TB dock - peripheral)
  • frbeckenbauer - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    Can we just finally get Thunderbolt/USB4 controllers that just *work* on a PCIe card without needing extra random bullshit connections (apart from power)? Please?
  • erotomania - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    My own first thought was "Great how are we going to get working TB4 peripherals now?"
  • onewingedangel - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    With the launch of Alchemist I was surprised it didn't have TB4 built in as the GPU already has surplus PCIe bandwidth and the displayport feed, and can always add an extra PCIe power connector. Thunderbolt on GPU would be the key to gaining widespread use on desktop. Hopefully Battlemage will have TB5 integrated.
  • meacupla - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    It's because ARC GPUs are supposed to be price competitive.
    If you slap on a TB4 controller onto that, it would be so expensive. It would make the 4060Ti look like a deal.
  • Sonic01 - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    No it won't Meteor Lake is basically finished already (it's released in 8 days) and this announcement says expect products in 2024, so no, no TB5 in this years chip released. Arrow Lake will prob come with it this time next year.

    Also, TB3 only throttles current cards by like 5-10%.
  • hubick - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    All this power for charging but they couldn't bump the 15w for bus powered devices? I boot from a dual m.2 nvme enclosure, and I'd *love* to lose the power brick for that.
  • repoman27 - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    15 W is the minimum required downstream facing port power budget. OEMs are free to implement USB Power Delivery for DFPs and device manufacturers can do likewise to negotiate USB PD contracts that go beyond 15 W for bus powered devices.
  • hubick - Tuesday, September 12, 2023 - link

    A fine theory, but are there actually any such enclosures that will run from bus/PD power? I feel like, if 15w is the minimum, the OEMs design for that and require a brick.

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